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Post by Revitalize Book on Jun 27, 2006 19:29:16 GMT -5
Cami made a comment and all but Gambitia, including myself did not take her post into consideration. When I realized my mistake, after Cami commented again, I apologized. I simply could not make a post based on her information being I had no idea whom Afiko was. Yet her information truly was of no less importance to any other post. And she is right.. this forum has become entirely too clicky. It needs to stop so this place can continue to exist. Thank You! That was exactly what had me POed... I don't expect agreement.. but the desire to be acknowledged is simply human. I think it's unreasonable to expect to change other people's opinion especially when it comes to shipping. Although I can see how GUG might feel slighted because she's taking the time to think out her position and isn't recognized for the effort that takes or the thought that goes into what she's saying. That's one of the reasons I tried to make the court work.. I thought it was a constructive way to debate different topics and ships.. but it was taken to an intense level that kind of shocked (and scared) me.. The thing is though.. the court was simply an organized way to debate certain topics.. and give everyone a voice. Of course, I still feel personally responsible for every fight that occured as a result of the court.. You shouldn't feel responsible for the arguements invovling the court. >.< It was probably beyond your control....And I hope that EVERYONE is acknoweledged, but sometimes your ignored. It's not even always intentional, so I think that should be at rest, and just brought up when necessary...? I'd actually like to do the Courts again, but I assume no one else does..? We were discussing about making it work, but I didn't really get the support (or help) necessary to get started. ...Did no one think the Courts were fun at all? I thought it was, am I the only one here? ^^;
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Alleluia
Kyoshi Mai
Earthbending General of the Zutarian Army
Icon by Youkaislayer
Posts: 2,384
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Post by Alleluia on Jun 27, 2006 19:50:42 GMT -5
Cami, you shouldn't feel responsible for that stuff. The court was your idea, but the fights/tension wasn't. I don't blame you and I doubt others do, either. Icehooper, since it was referenced often in the last few pages or so, about the war room and being told to "get out"-- I just wanted to apologize. I didn't mean it that way, though I knew it was likely most of the non-zutarians posting in the room would take it that way. But, I couldn't think of any better way to phrase my sentiments at the time. Just to make it clear(I hope) I didn't mean for everyone who was non-zutarian to get out of the zutara war room and stop posting there. I was just tired of seeing *pages* of debate against zutara in its "home thread", so to speak. And I wanted that to stop. I didn't want those non-zutara posters to leave and stop contributing, just stop attacking the ship in the war room. That was all. (I am pretty sure I have stated myself clearly and correctly this time. lol I hope, anyway.) I am 21, an avatard and proud of it! lol Though, I don't randomly go around telling people in the mall that I like a cartoon or anything.... But my family knows! lol And a few friends. (Speaking of which, it is amazing to me how many ppl I have met through this fandom and become online friends with. So cool.) Really, clearsunrise... sitcoms overdone? No! *melodramatic stage voice* Say it ain't so!!!XD LOL Wow, pg 23 and I think that this is only my first post in here. EDIT: Icehooper, the courts just seemed like too much effort to me. But maybe that was just me. And, GUG, you said this like two pages back, but i have to agree that this definitely feels more like the wait between seasons than anything else. I just hope the new ep lives up to the wait. "Avatar State" didn't really do it for me as a premier. But the show seems to have gathered back its season one momentum in the last few episodes. Hopefully this break won't have killed that.... -_-;
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Post by Revitalize Book on Jun 27, 2006 20:05:59 GMT -5
Icehooper, since it was referenced often in the last few pages or so, about the war room and being told to "get out"-- I just wanted to apologize. I didn't mean it that way, though I knew it was likely most of the non-zutarians posting in the room would take it that way. But, I couldn't think of any better way to phrase my sentiments at the time. Just to make it clear(I hope) I didn't mean for everyone who was non-zutarian to get out of the zutara war room and stop posting there. I was just tired of seeing *pages* of debate against zutara in its "home thread", so to speak. And I wanted that to stop. I didn't want those non-zutara posters to leave and stop contributing, just stop attacking the ship in the war room. That was all. (I am pretty sure I have stated myself clearly and correctly this time. lol I hope, anyway.) . *Deep breathe* I certainly did not get any of that during that time, or an explanation saying that you just wanted the bashing to stop, but would still like all shippers to post. All I know is that you told non-Zutarian shippers to get out of the War Room, and when I asked for clarification, that is what you agree: that you wanted others to get out. Maybe not just you. Maybe only a few. But that was a completely disappointing experience, and clarifying it now, days later, is kind of...well, *deep breath*. In any case, you didn't bother to clarify when the event happened, so I don't see much reason to worry about it now, when it's been over for quite some time. I am still horrendously mad about that event. Horrendously. So believe me when I post, for the sake of all current and comfortable peace in this thread: do not even tell me anything about that event. My mind is so clouded by bitterness I will hardly let anything through, as I don't think there was much excuse for what happened.That may seem exaggerated, but it seriously ticked me off. ....And I am Icehopper. Very nice weather today, however, (although it's hot XD). I guess if the Courts didn't go well, it didn't go well, but if there is ever a time anyone wants to try again, I'm surely in. XD I did enjoy all the information each ship cooked up. ;D There was talk of presenting info and not judging, but it seemed the fun was taken if that happened? XD EDIT: But doesn't the wait spice up the anticipation? ;D *is shot* XD
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Alleluia
Kyoshi Mai
Earthbending General of the Zutarian Army
Icon by Youkaislayer
Posts: 2,384
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Post by Alleluia on Jun 27, 2006 20:14:54 GMT -5
Oh, "Icehopper". *ducks head* heh.. sorry. I shall remember that from now on. You say you are horrendiously mad about that event. that would be my reason for seeking to clarify now, even though it has been a while. I have apologized and I say again that i am sorry that I offeneded you. The ball is in your court now as to whether this dies here or goes on further.
And yeah, the fun of the court seemed to be the judging. Because that gave the ones who won the case a feeling of it being "official" now. But that was also the inherent problem, too. Because then we had those who lost feel cheated. Plus, the effort it took to actually compile those cases for presentation was pretty substantial. (too substantial, in my opinion, for a decision that wouldn't have much significance in the end unless you chose to believe it did. Which is what I meant by "too much effort")
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Post by cami on Jun 27, 2006 20:19:55 GMT -5
Interesting.. I had no idea any of the "GET OUT" stuff was going on.. Umm.. yeah.. not sure what to say about that.. it seems as though you both had legitimate complaints.. but that happened months ago.. it's time to let it go and just work toward making sure that never happens again..
Easier said than done...
As far as starting up the courts again.. I have an idea of how to do that.. and actually make it work.. but I'm just kind of afraid of stressing everyone out again and causing FORUM WAR 3..
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Jun 27, 2006 20:20:06 GMT -5
I didn't take you for an idiot and, yes, silly generalization.
No, those works should not be denounced for their "cliche" plots and nowhere did I say or imply any such thing. I have a deeply-rooted love of literature. That's why I majored in it at university. It's also why I spend so much time analyzing fiction in my spare time. No, I'm not looking to denounce classics.
All I did was point out that, in a debate, trying to justify a relationship or compatibility between two characters by using "opposites attract" as a proof is a logical fallacy. A documented logical fallacy.
I didn't even attack it as a plot device. Though, I could.
re: yin yang
I have never denied the male and female attributes that involved in the tao. I've studied it. I know these things.
As I have explained time and time again since I first came to these boards, you must consider symbols in the context in which they are used. The romantic subtext that Zuko/Katara shippers project onto yin yang on Avatar is subjective; most specifically the romantic subtext that they project onto yin yang as it applies to Zuko and Katara. On the show, yin yang is not presented as a romantic concept. The narrative gives absolutely no indication that you are supposed to consider it in terms of romance. Yin yang/balance are used on the show to put forth the idea of balance in the world entire: understanding and communication between disparate peoples of disparate nations. Aang is used as the ultimate representation of this balance. The mistake that Zuko/Katara shippers make when trying to use this as undeniable proof for their ship is that they assume that because romance can conceivably be included as part of that ideal of balance as represented by yin yang and the four nations that it will be.
Zuko/Katara argument goes: "If there is yin yang, then there must be Zuko/Katara. Thus, since there is yin yang, there is Zuko/Katara." It's a correctly formed modus ponens argument, but the flaw lies in the fact that the P and Q statements (the if/then) are not necessarily true.
The problem I have is that there is no corroborating evidence to support the idea that yin yang is meant as romantic foreshadowing for Zuko/Katara and much evidence to contradict this.
However, I have never once stated that Zuko/Katara is impossible. Do I think that it's at all likely to happen? No. Not in the least. Neither am I "dead against" them being together. What I am deadset against is people trying to pass it off as canon or even highly canonically likely when, logically and objectively, it's not. I adore literary analysis. I am drawn to debate. I love critical thinking. I love argumentation and exposition. I value logic very highly and illogic chafes me. I'll argue against anything when there are fallacious statements being used to support it, even if I agree with the original statement. Please don't assume a vendetta where there isn't one.
I make no secret of the fact that I think the show is obvious to the point of ridiculousness about the canonshipping, which is a conclusion that I came to long before I ever set foot in the fandom and with as little bias as was possible for a person to have. So, it certainly wasn't because I went OMG NOES ZUKO/KATARA HAAATE and vowed to go and ruin the day of every Zuko/Katara shipper I could find. I do not begrudge you your ship at all, in any way. But I am not going to pretend that I think it's likely when I don't. And I'm sorry if you take that persecution or me not giving your ship fair consideration. I can assure you I did consider it and that's how I came to my conclusion. It's a hard truth, but ships are not people. They are not all created equal. Some are far more likely than other; some are far more well-supported than others; some are far more logical than others. Part of being in fandom is accepting that you're going to disagree with people a lot of the time about which is which. And if you want to retreat to be surrounded by people who agree with you, that's fine. But people are not oppressing you or persecuting you or doing anything inherently wrong by disagreeing with you. And if you fail to make a point that they agree with, of course they're not going to congratulate you about your posts.
And, frankly, considering that Zuko/Katara is without a doubt the most popular ship in the entire fandom, swinging at least 80%, I have a hard time feeling all that sympathetic that you feel persecuted.
The only thing I ship, really ship, is Mai/Zuko. Which I've seen a grand total of about 25 people support in any way. And this is on this board, on LJ, and throughout various other places on the internet. I run a Mai/Zuko ship community. It has 15 members including myself. The overwhelming majority of people don't even consider Mai/Zuko a viable possibility despite the fact that she's empirically the only girl to ever show romantic interest in Zuko. People bash Mai all over the internet and on this board, in their arguments for their ships, in their signatures, in their fanfiction, everywhere.
And I still don't complain about people not giving the ship its due consideration even though it's perfectly obvious that they don't.
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Post by theweasleyboys on Jun 27, 2006 20:20:12 GMT -5
If I may...
I offer the idea of a game in which I could offer episode-referenced examples of how Zuko and Katara do similar things, another person could episode-reference how Katara and Aang do similar things, and so on with any couple they support. I won't give a thumbs up or thumbs down, but I would like to hear how the members of this board view their ships through this game. In this way, I hope to calm things down and possibly give the debate an enjoyable edge. Please let me know what you think.
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Alleluia
Kyoshi Mai
Earthbending General of the Zutarian Army
Icon by Youkaislayer
Posts: 2,384
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Post by Alleluia on Jun 27, 2006 20:36:26 GMT -5
I remember seeing some of the those comparisons spring up in the zutara war room, theweasleyboys. I think that could be an interesting thing to do. There is certainly plenty of material to work from, though Kataang and Zutara will definitely have the most.
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Post by theweasleyboys on Jun 27, 2006 20:39:17 GMT -5
Well, look at it this way...I won't try to ruin things by saying to one person, "That makes sense" and then saying to someone else, "No way, bad idea". That would only make things worse, what I want to do is allow everybody to offer their thoughts and, once they do, I'd do stuff like talk about scenarios for each couple and they could help by making their own scenarios. Am I making sense here? It seems like there's some bad blood here and I'd like to help fix it.
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Post by Revitalize Book on Jun 27, 2006 20:42:54 GMT -5
Oh, "Icehopper". *ducks head* heh.. sorry. I shall remember that from now on. You say you are horrendiously mad about that event. that would be my reason for seeking to clarify now, even though it has been a while. I have apologized and I say again that i am sorry that I offeneded you. The ball is in your court now as to whether this dies here or goes on further. Nope, the ball is not in my court whether this goes on or further- it is not my reponsiblity now. To be honest, I have no way of knowing if you are being sincere. And yes I am still mad, but my being mad should have nothing to do with your clarifying now, unless you feel others are still mad or want to release any guilt you may be feeling about the event. Like I stated, still reeling over the event, so it is probably best not to further converse with me about it. Just being honest. But I will say there are other people who are mad as well, and that your clarification may be a welcome sight to them or not. But I do want to state that I did not recieve an apology from you or anyone from that event whatsoever until now. theweasleyboys: That sounds pretty intersting. I'm game. @gotterdammerung: 25?? That's all?? I thought- but- the fanfics...
Am I included??@_@ XD That is disappointing to know! I could have sworn there were more...Interesting.. I had no idea any of the "GET OUT" stuff was going on.. Umm.. yeah.. not sure what to say about that.. it seems as though you both had legitimate complaints.. but that happened months ago.. it's time to let it go and just work toward making sure that never happens again.. Easier said than done... .. It didn't happen months ago; it happened recently. I'm being honest in saying I'm upset, and I see no reason as to why I can't be until ready. It's only time for something until you let it be. XD And I have a feeling that wasn't the last...X(
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girlunderglass
Metalbending Cop
Runs With Scissors
Just STFU Already.
Posts: 5,014
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Post by girlunderglass on Jun 27, 2006 20:53:49 GMT -5
As I have explained time and time again since I first came to these boards, you must consider symbols in the context in which they are used. The romantic subtext that Zuko/Katara shippers project onto yin yang on Avatar is subjective; most specifically the romantic subtext that they project onto yin yang as it applies to Zuko and Katara. On the show, yin yang is not presented as a romantic concept. The narrative gives absolutely no indication that you are supposed to consider it in terms of romance. Yin yang/balance are used on the show to put forth the idea of balance in the world entire: understanding and communication between disparate peoples of disparate nations. Aang is used as the ultimate representation of this balance. The mistake that Zuko/Katara shippers make when trying to use this as undeniable proof for their ship is that they assume that because romance can conceivably be included as part of that ideal of balance as represented by yin yang and the four nations that it will be. I can agree and respect that completely. The yin yang concept has not been applied directly to romance on the show.. as of yet at least. I do see another point that I believe was you to initiate, that the greater usage of yin yang that will likely come to be is between Aang and Zuko. They do have very similar and contrary qualities and the writer's are not bashful of showing them. The Storm is an excellent example of such. As each characters life story went on, they mirrored each and the end result are two opposing people. I also agree that Zuko and Aang will possibly/probably work with one another in defeating Ozai and the comet. However, I have never once stated that Zuko/Katara is impossible. Do I think that it's at all likely to happen? No. Not in the least. Neither am I "dead against" them being together. What I am dead-set against is people trying to pass it off as canon or even highly canonically likely when, logically and objectively, it's not. I adore literary analysis. I am drawn to debate. I love critical thinking. I love argumentation and exposition. I value logic very highly and illogic chafes me. I'll argue against anything when there are fallacious statements being used to support it, even if I agree with the original statement. Please don't assume a vendetta where there isn't one. I thank you kindly for the clarification. I apologize to have taken offense as if it was directed personally. I have not had much interaction on the forum with you and I am still 'learning' you. The only thing I ship, really ship, is Mai/Zuko. Which I've seen a grand total of about 25 people support in any way. And this is on this board, on LJ, and throughout various other places on the internet. I run a Mai/Zuko ship community. It has 15 members including myself. The overwhelming majority of people don't even consider Mai/Zuko a viable possibility despite the fact that she's empirically the only girl to ever show romantic interest in Zuko. People bash Mai all over the internet and on this board, in their arguments for their ships, in their signatures, in their fanfiction, everywhere. And I still don't complain about people not giving the ship its due consideration even though it's perfectly obvious that they don't. I can't denounce Maiko. But just like Zutara needs a major turning point to exist, I feel that Maiko is going to need Mai to betray Azula (or Azula betray Mai enough for her to walk away). I do not think by any means that is impossible considering how manipulative Azula is with both Mai and Ty Lee... and neither girl is naive enough to not see that she uses them for her own advancement. @cami.. Yes! Please get the court or whatever idea you got for us all together. I really did look forward to seeing what everyone had to say. I think it was a great idea. My only suggestion is that perhaps the deadline for entries is given a lil more time. If you need any help, please feel free to ask me.. I have the time (after 7/15) to be involved. I sincerely do not want to see you get burnt out over this again. You're too valuable to us. EDIT: Alle- Agreed across the board.. and welcome back. Long time, no see stranger. Hope as is well for you. ONE MORE EDIT: I apologized to you Breathing. I am pretty sure in one of the War Rooms a while back and I know for sure withint the last few pages.. or I at least explained that I was never upset at you. lol As Cami said, 'let's get past it".. I am so sure that I am. Or I wouldn;t have brought it out on the table again. Best to talk about it.. even if it is month's later and move forward.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Jun 27, 2006 20:58:30 GMT -5
25 was my generous estimate. There are 11 people who have written a total of 15 Mai/Zuko fics on fanfiction.net. Almost all of them are among the 6-8 regular posters on the Mai/Zuko thread here. There are 14 members besides me in my Mai/Zuko community on LiveJournal, but one or two of them are also on this board. I've seen one Mai/Zuko fic on LJ that was not also on FF.net, but it was by a member of my aforementioned community. A few days ago someone came across my LiveJournal because they had been Googling Mai/Zuko hoping to find Mai/Zuko shippers and my LiveJournal is the top hit. The second hit is someone on TV.com's "essay" bashing Mai/Zuko. The person who Googled me has since been counted among the 14 members of my Mai/Zuko community. On various other boards I've come across at the most two or three people who will even acknowledge that Mai/Zuko is at all viable. Every once in a while one person actually counts themself as a shipper.
So, with all the overlap, yeah, 25.
ETA: Thank you for being so reasonable, GUG. And I agree and also have extensive thoughts re: Mai's allegiance to Azula and just Mai/Zuko In Canon in general that I'll eventually have to post.
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Post by theweasleyboys on Jun 27, 2006 21:00:40 GMT -5
Do I have anyone else interested in the game I offered above...? All are welcome.
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girlunderglass
Metalbending Cop
Runs With Scissors
Just STFU Already.
Posts: 5,014
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Post by girlunderglass on Jun 27, 2006 21:02:05 GMT -5
Bring it on Weasley.
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Post by theweasleyboys on Jun 27, 2006 21:07:48 GMT -5
Roger dodger. Off I go!
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