Hatsumomo
Buzzard Wasp
Captain of the Yuu Yan
Friendly Mushroom Wave
Posts: 538
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Mai
Apr 13, 2006 14:01:00 GMT -5
Post by Hatsumomo on Apr 13, 2006 14:01:00 GMT -5
How can Katara be a sue when she's one of the main cannon characters? If she were a sue, wouldn't Zuko, Sokka, and Aang be stus then?
Think fanfiction. Random character pops in, with a sad story, and everyone loves her/him right away and trusts her/him instantly. If they're really annoying, they'll win the heart of a cannon character .:snaps fingers:. just like that.
I personally don't think Mai is a sue. Is she likable character? Depends on what you think. I don't think she's so bad. She's a nice contrast to lil bubbly Ty Lee.
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daycon
Jun
random firebender # 765
Posts: 469
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Mai
Apr 13, 2006 14:42:46 GMT -5
Post by daycon on Apr 13, 2006 14:42:46 GMT -5
^_^ It's an opinion, to me she screams mary sue because she has all the traits of one. But if you're going to be technical about it and say that because she's cannon she can't be, then yes, I'd agree with you.
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Mai
Apr 13, 2006 15:24:51 GMT -5
Post by shiro on Apr 13, 2006 15:24:51 GMT -5
Daycon is right "it's an opinion" we all have the characters we like and the ones we dont like, there is no wrong or right answer to who is mary sue and who isn't. Personally I cant stand Ang because he reminds me of every other main protagonist that I cant stand.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Mai
Apr 13, 2006 16:18:32 GMT -5
Post by Gotterdammerung on Apr 13, 2006 16:18:32 GMT -5
Well the point I was making is that none of them are actually Mary Sues and if you boil down most characters to their essentials you can describe them in a way that makes them sound like a Mary Sue.
And canon characters can be Mary Sues, even if you're being technical. A very famous and oft-used example of a Mary Sue was Wesley Crusher on Star Trek: The Next Generation who was named after creator Gene Roddenberry and was prodigious and always right etc. Also, the most egregious example of a Mary Sue I have ever seen in my entire life (She had every Mary Sue trait you could possibly imagine. No joke.) was the main character of a novel.
I think there is a right and a wrong answer to who and who is not a Mary Sue to a certain extent. I mean, you can argue it but if you take a genuinely flawed character, you're going to have a hard time saying that they're a Mary Sue. Likewise if you're going to take a perfect-in-every-way always-right character, you're going to have a hard time saying they're not.
However, I have issues with the entire concept of Mary Sues or rather Mary Sue-mania, or in other words people's tendency to be extremely quick to call characters a Mary Sue. A character isn't a Mary Sue just because you don't like them, they're a Mary Sue, because they are.
Ultimately the most important things are always whether a character is 1) believeable and 2) likeable.
Now, Mary Sues are generally neither, but if someone can write a character with Sue-ish traits and make them so, then more power to them.
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Mai
Apr 14, 2006 17:41:41 GMT -5
Post by gambitia on Apr 14, 2006 17:41:41 GMT -5
The problem I have with Mai is not that she's a mary-sue, but that, as of now, she's a highly unorginal character.
Come on: practically every show has an angst-ridden person who's an incredible fighter.
Teen Titans had Raven X-Men had Rogue (and Dazzler *sorta* and Wolverine and...) I'd list more but I have to go...
I hope she gets a more interesting and less cliche personality.
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Mai
Apr 14, 2006 22:30:27 GMT -5
Post by csilasvegas123 on Apr 14, 2006 22:30:27 GMT -5
Me either. Her face really scares me. Especially her nose. *shudders* I COMPLETELY Despise her. And I always will. Hmph.
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Mai
Apr 14, 2006 22:40:57 GMT -5
Post by Revitalize Book on Apr 14, 2006 22:40:57 GMT -5
The problem I have with Mai is not that she's a mary-sue, but that, as of now, she's a highly unorginal character. Come on: practically every show has an angst-ridden person who's an incredible fighter. Teen Titans had Raven X-Men had Rogue (and Dazzler *sorta* and Wolverine and...) I'd list more but I have to go... I hope she gets a more interesting and less cliche personality. Eh? But couldn't we say the same thing for the cheerful types like Ty Lee, in that they are cliche as well? >.>....Uh, what is this of Mai being 'ugly' to some? I think she looks just fine. >.< Eh? Why is she ugly?Hmmm....X( I'm just waiting to see a bit more of Mai. Right now it is generally prefernce perspective about her- we need hard core solid, undeniable evidence! More episodes with a sharp flash to Mais...er, something!XD In short, I am suffering from Ozai Angel Withdrawal. ;_; Hopefully, with new episodes, we can bring new material into Mais character.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Mai
Apr 15, 2006 2:06:13 GMT -5
Post by Gotterdammerung on Apr 15, 2006 2:06:13 GMT -5
Every character is based on an archetype of some sort. I mean you're free not to enjoy any particular archetype, but that doesn't mean all of the characters based on that initial framework are the same. Shows have characters that have base similarities because these archetypes are universal and a good starting point for a character. Zuko is your average daddy-issue-having anti-hero; it doesn't mean he's an unoriginal character, and most people wouldn't call him such because we've had ample time to see him in action.
I mean think about how incredibly different Raven, Rogue, Dazzler, and Wolverine all are as characters. Just because they have angst doesn't mean that they're the same character.
Raven is angsty because her power comes from some dark source. Rogue is angsty because she can't touch anyone. Wolverine is angsty because he was experimented on and doesn't remember his past, etc. etc. Zuko is angsty and a good fighter too, that doesn't mean that he's the same as any of those characters either.
I also still hold to the idea that Mai is not, in fact, "angsty." Mai is just bored and disaffected.
Also, she's been in one episode, it's a little soon to decide she's just like whoever else.
I have to agree that right now it mostly just comes down to personal preference whether you like her, because there's honestly not much there to like or dislike.
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MsJimmy
Refugee Aang
*drok**punk**highfive*
Posts: 4,630
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Mai
Apr 15, 2006 3:18:54 GMT -5
Post by MsJimmy on Apr 15, 2006 3:18:54 GMT -5
I don't really like Mei. I like the way she fights though. With the whole knives and arrows just poppin' out of her sleeves lol. I thought it was pretty cool. I just don't like her because her personality is so like....blah, because she's constantly bored. I didn't like her hair either but that's ok.
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Yang Fishy
Wolf Hakoda
Firebending General of the Zutarian Army
all that rises must fall, all that is born must die, all that is gathered will be scattered
Posts: 2,857
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Mai
Apr 15, 2006 20:57:58 GMT -5
Post by Yang Fishy on Apr 15, 2006 20:57:58 GMT -5
I liked Mai as a character! Now that I think about it she's not so much as angst...she's really just a bored girl who wants to have her own adventures and her escape. But I didn't approve of her not thinking her brother was worthy enough for an enxchange with King Bumi! Mai: "And I thought my life was boring in the firenation...sigh" (she needs to get out more!)(hmm...Mei reminds me a lot of Helga; another nicklelodeon character from Hey Arnold!Who did helga really like: Arnold, of course! Who does Mei really like: Zuko! Who knows about her liking Zuko? TyLee so far...and who knew about Helga liking Arnold...why Lila! And who did Arnold like most of all that helga despised; Ruth!...and who does Mei despise/rival with so far: OMG! Katara!I know this is a very wierd connection?!)
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Mai
Apr 17, 2006 18:11:53 GMT -5
Post by supremeone on Apr 17, 2006 18:11:53 GMT -5
Well at least she isn't hunting her brother like Azula.
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daydream11
penguin
"I love you, Bolin! AHHHHH!!!"
Posts: 2
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Mai
Apr 17, 2006 19:03:02 GMT -5
Post by daydream11 on Apr 17, 2006 19:03:02 GMT -5
Well at least she isn't hunting her brother like Azula. Yea, she asked nicely. ;D I thought too that it wasn't so much that she was angsty, but more bored. She just needs to get out there for some adventure, instead of stuck up in some city made of dirt with her parents. I mean, she seemed pretty excited to launch those saucers the first time she ran into Aang & Co, and then sighed when they got away. If that's not a cry for fun, I don't know what is.
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Mai
Apr 17, 2006 20:08:15 GMT -5
Post by KaseyKat on Apr 17, 2006 20:08:15 GMT -5
I’m just a visitor here, but I wanted to say my opinion because I was, actually, incredibly surprised to see any negative reaction at all to Mai. From the very first moment we met her—and I mean within her first sentence—I just loved her and by the end of the show she had risen in the ranks to be in contention as my possible favorite character. Her sarcasm and wry humor hits my sense of humor perfectly. Dry observations are just the best. It was thrilling to see a truly superb fighter with grace and style who wasn’t a bender—no mean feat when you think about the advantage being able to alter the world around you must provide. Now, to three specific instances I’d like to share my view on. Firstly, I didn’t see her as disrespecting her parents (her mother especially) at all—it seemed to me that she was just speaking as a person would to someone they have an open relationship with. She wasn’t antagonizing her, she was just speaking to her frankly; more, perhaps, as a peer than an authority figure—a peer who she doesn’t entirely understand, and who doesn’t entirely understand her either, but who have a bond nonetheless. It seemed like the sort of mature, albeit flawed, relationship children often have with their parents when they are much older than their younger sibling(s); like I said, tilted a tad closer to the peer side than is conventional, though still not a complete peer, of course. Secondly, I did not find a single instance that to me spoke of angst. Brooding, perhaps, puzzling things together, complaining dryly—but wailing, whining, sniveling about some secret pain, writing poems about tearstained pillows? Never. She is fully in control of herself, and clearly considers it an immense disadvantage for others to know precisely what she was thinking (hence the silence and unreadable expression during the handkerchief moment). But I did not detect any angst. My third bit I saved for last because it is completely objective, is entirely based on my personal point of view and all of my personal experiences that I bring to the table, yada yada yada. It is pure opinion, based on no solid evidence or fact whatsoever—just my gut reaction during the hostage-trade scene. What I felt was happening here, was a power play—and while there were several going on at that particular moment, the one I’m referring to was somewhat secondary and had nothing whatsoever to do with Aang and co. It was between Azula and Mai. Mai is, I believe, far more the intellectual equal to Azula than Ty Lee is. Please allow me the assumption that whether or not Ty Lee is smart, she is certainly not shrewd. Mai, I believe is, and Azula certainly is. When Azula asked for permission to speak, the audience had already guessed what she was going to say, and so, I believe, had Mai. And aside from the primary motive—not giving up an important strategic war item (Bumi)—I had this feeling—again, just a feeling—that she was testing Mai. Wanted a reaction, to test where her loyalties were, her emotional weaknesses and boundaries. Mai knew this. Being by nature very reserved, she did not want anybody to know her limits and weaknesses, least of all someone as powerful, fickle and evil as Azula. Azula is a potential threat to anyone she knows, and Mai is just the sort of person who would know this. So she showed no weakness. I would guess she was scared stiff about her brother, despite the immediate and obvious impression that Aang and co. would not be the types to hurt him, and was probably watching for an opportunity to get him back anyway. But for just then, Azula and her power play was, in her mind, more of a threat to her than Aang was to Tom Tom. I’m not saying it was right, she is a villain, after all. And I probably imagined the whole thing anyway. But it was fascinating. And Mai is fascinating. And hilarious. Her physical character design is incredible and original, as is her VA. Simply put, I adore her.
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Yang Fishy
Wolf Hakoda
Firebending General of the Zutarian Army
all that rises must fall, all that is born must die, all that is gathered will be scattered
Posts: 2,857
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Mai
Apr 17, 2006 21:14:10 GMT -5
Post by Yang Fishy on Apr 17, 2006 21:14:10 GMT -5
^ All very good points KaseyKat! Well I liked Mai, I just don't support the fact that she's a follower and not a leader. She may be afraid of Azula and whether she wants to or not is going to have to follow the princess' every command. She should have really stood up for her brother back there...even if she was standing alone.
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Mai
Apr 17, 2006 22:06:59 GMT -5
Post by KaseyKat on Apr 17, 2006 22:06:59 GMT -5
I don't think Mai's necesarily afraid of Azula, just wary of her. I mean, look what she's doing to her own brother, a person'd have to be a fool to expect her to be ~omg BeSt FrieNds 4EvaH~ And anyway, yes, Mai was not being good to her little brother. But honestly, what a poor villian she would make if in her debut she was already challenging Azula's authority and moving over to complete moral purity. I mean, how boring would that be, no room for character growth, and character growth is my favorite part of this or any show or book, better even than the plot or fight scenes. Yay for potention personal growth! Anyway, I sincerely hope for an Azula v. Mai conflict later in the series. I think they would be well-matched, if not skill-wise than at least as far as being strong, competent and intelligent characters. And Mai won't take everything laying down (ex. I don't the thinly-veiled threats Azula used against Ty Lee in the circus would have gone over too well w/ Mai, but then I wouldn't expect Azula to try that particular brand of manipulation with Mai). Well, my point before I went rambling off is that I think Mai is a leader by nature but knows better than to challenge Azula without a really good reason (good reason by her standards) and that she may very well challenge Azula later in the series. w00t for intelligent antagonists!
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