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Post by textbender on Apr 27, 2008 12:21:57 GMT -5
I just read the interview posted here in the Forum: distanthorizons.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=avgeneral&action=display&thread=16115and it sounds as if Bryan and Michael are shutting down Zutara. I am a Zutarian myself, but I don't feel comfortable going against the grain of the show. I just wonder: when else have Bryan and Michael talked about shipping in interviews, and how clear are their comments about it? "People will see what they want to see" addressed at Zutarians really sounds dismissive. I have yet to disagree with the writers about a ship! I realize the Kataang romance has been developed from the start, but it has always seemed a one way thing (Aang's crush) with Katara feeling the kind of love a mother does for her child. When they say it is the DNA of the show, I wonder what exactly they mean by that in terms of final outcome. It is clearly a continuous part of the story. Katara is Aang's attachment. If they meant Zutara to happen in the end, how can they say "People see what they want to see"? Although, the "you are jumping ahead" seems to say: you are seeing something that's not there yet, but it will be there one day?
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Post by bagpipe turtle on Apr 27, 2008 12:30:58 GMT -5
I personally don't think they meant this to shut down Zutara. I think they meant for it to be unclear.
Some of their interviews seem more Kataang, and some of them seem more Zutara. It's all about keeping people on the edge of their seat.
Also: I think the context Bryan said "People see what they want to see" does not disprove or prove any ship.
This could be read as: People saw Zutara in that scene, but they were jumping ahead because the the real Zutara moment was later on. Or it could be read as anti.
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on Apr 27, 2008 17:12:32 GMT -5
I just posted this somewhere else, but it is better suited here. Hm... I am surprised to see M&B's stance on Zutara and Kataang. One thing seems clear, and I didn't expect it: they did not intend Zutara, at least not at first. But it looks like some things change. Toph is one of my favorite characters, and Bryan fought against the idea at first. Ya, I suppose some Zutaran's might try to make that interview go either way, and that there is still some zutara in there. but that only works if M&B had put Zutara in after the fact, and it was not planned in the begining, but was rather a response to the fans. however, that is clearly refuted by this interview. Bryan Konietzko:" I think it's important to note one thing I have heard from the internet is that some fans have the idea we've put shipping into the show because they've asked for it...requested it. This is totally not the case. Mike and I like to do melodrama stuff and we wanted that in there. Not that it's all cheesy, but we wanted that from the get-go. Five years ago when we were developing this. Mike DiMartino adds: Yeah, Aang-Katara, that romance. Some stuff developed along the way, and we're glad some fans are more receptive to that element of the show, but it was in the DNA of the thing from the start. ya, combine these two interviews together( not to mention what we saw in 315 and that one of them agreed that they shipped kataang the the DOBS commentary) and the message is pretty dang clear... Sorry. EDIT: I personally don't think they meant this to shut down Zutara. I think they meant for it to be unclear. Some of their interviews seem more Kataang, and some of them seem more Zutara. It's all about keeping people on the edge of their seat. It woud be much more accurate to say. Some of their interviews seem more Kataang, and some of them seem to atteppt to be vague. ... seriously, quote me one verse that is clearly zutara. Also: I think the context Bryan said "People see what they want to see" does not disprove or prove any ship. KONIETZKO: "I think we've met some people where when he has her necklace in episode 109, people were like, "Oh, they're going to get together." (laughs) We were like, "Whoa! You guys are jumping ahead!" But, whatever...people see what they want to see."This could be read as: People saw Zutara in that scene, but they were jumping ahead because the the real Zutara moment was later on. Nope, because if there was a "real Zutara moment later on." then the necklace and other moments really would be foreshadowing, and the " whatever...people see what they want to see." quote would have been unwarranted and inaccurate.
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Post by deana on Apr 27, 2008 17:25:46 GMT -5
It is not just Zutarians who saw that interview as going either way. Actually I saw some none shippers say the same thing. I guess they are grasping at straws for a ship that they care little about.
I say again, that that DNA of the show thing doesn't prove Kataang will be canon. If it is obvious that Aang has a crush on Katara in almost every freaking episode, sure it is part of the DNA of the show.
I have only seen antis of Zutara say that they do fan service for us. I believe they are dispusting that. Translates to: If they make a certain relationship canon, it doesn't mean they caved to us. It means that it was planned. It may not have been in the original draft (like Aragorn and Arwen in Lord of the Rings), but was planned later.
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on Apr 27, 2008 17:48:39 GMT -5
Its obvious to everybody that M&B are not able to directly stare what ship is going to happen. they intentionally try to weave vagueness into what they say as to not get introuble for spoilers.
so we have vagueness overlapping some pretty clear pro-kataang hints. has there ever been any pro zutaran hints?
no, the closest thing to that would be. Sound director: but their not supposed to BE together. M or B: *laughs* ya, but thats what makes it great! they (the fans) are tenacious!
except it wasnt called "aang's crush" or "that romantic dilemma" or something like that.
It was called the "Aang-Katara romance"
... a pretty clear, mutual, and final term, imo.
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Post by textbender on Apr 27, 2008 17:52:13 GMT -5
"Nope, because if there was a "real Zutara moment later on." then the necklace and other moments really would be foreshadowing, and the " whatever...people see what they want to see." quote would have been unwarranted and inaccurate. "
Exactly, this is what is disturbing me at the moment. If they meant Zutara to happen, I can't see them saying that. I just wonder what they meant by "You guys are jumping ahead."
I need to find more interviews... I've seen the one about the "melodrama" and the "Aang-Katara romance," and I could not see how they could say those two concepts in one sentence... I'm having a very hard time with this, unless they are talking on multiple levels and playing a bit with what they really mean. But I don't see writers being so misleading...
One thing though, I don't think if the story changes it is for the fans. I mean, the story may change because the writers collectively have it take a different direction.
I guess another problem is, for me Toph and Aang belong together, but... the writers intended Toph to be a guy initially, which means they did not intend that ship initially, which, if the ship is the DNA of the story, means either Aang will get Katara, or he will get nobody, but he won't get Toph, unless they really change the DNA.
If Aang could only mature some and look less like someone Katara is babysitting and more like a possible romantic interest I could warm up to the ship. That won't happen by summer's end! But I guess the creators would not talk about Kataang so much in interviews, and develop it so much in teh show, if they didn't mean for it to bloom at one point into some major scene. I need to accept that now. I guess I've been dismissing it a bit too easily as the core of the story. The melodrama, as far as I am concerned, has not really happened yet, except maybe starting with the Avatar state. When Katara caught the dying Avatar, though, she reminded me of the Pieta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietà), which reinforces the mother/son relationship, not something romantic.
And yet, if I get in a Kataang mindmode, on the ship during the Awakening Katara was perhaps most emotionally attached to Aang. She was annoyed with her father's presence when she was talking to him (like a GF wanting to be alone with her BF) and then when he left and she exploded at her dad and said she "needed him" it sounded a bit stronger than a "motherly" feeling.
So, since B&M say there will be melodrama, perhaps they will develop Katara's feelings towards Aang more after all. But perhaps what will happen is at some point Aang will mention to her that "forget about the Avatar state" "it's way overrated," and "love is more important," and she will draw back, and then there will be the melodrama of separation and sacrifice... and Zukko will still get Katara, but not because she chose him first, but because she let Aang go so that he could let her go and do his Avatar thing, something like that. I wonder how they can do all this in so few episodes and do everything else as well.
If this is what they had in mind, then I can see how they could say about Zukko early on "Whatever... people will see what they want to see" even if such is the end. But I'm still troubled by the tone of that comment. It seems so dismissive of Zukko as a potential.
Aang and Katara is sweet, but Aang is just a kid. And Katara is a young lady. I don't know what the writers have in mind, but I'm not feeling it!
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on Apr 27, 2008 17:56:57 GMT -5
I need to find more interviews... I've seen the one about the "melodrama" and the "Aang-Katara romance," and I could not see how they could say those two concepts in one sentence... I'm having a very hard time with this, unless they are talking on multiple levels and playing a bit with what they really mean. But I don't see writers being so misleading... that would refer partially to aangs growth in maturity, and katara's realization of "your not that goofy little kid I found in the Iceberg anymore." but mostly, I think it refers to the upcoming conflict with "letting katara go" (whatever the hell that means) for the sake of the avatar state.
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Post by textbender on Apr 27, 2008 18:05:11 GMT -5
"no, the closest thing to that would be. Sound director: but their not supposed to BE together. M or B: *laughs* ya, but thats what makes it great! they (the fans) are tenacious!"
Where can I find this interview? Wait, I'll go searching.
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pg15
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Post by pg15 on Apr 27, 2008 18:19:25 GMT -5
You won't find it in an interview.
It's part of the DVD commentary for The Day of Black Sun: The Invasion.
Yeah, overall, I don't think the Avastaff thinks of Katara and Aang as a mother/son thing, even if you do. There's a reason why they devoted whole episodes to their developing romance, had Katara suggest kissing Aang, had Aang realize that his feelings were much much more than a crush, but instead the reincarnated EPIC LOVE of an entire culture. And then there's the bedroom eyes and hot dance in The Headband, and then finally the kiss in The Invasion, which Katara clearly didn't want to end.
Oh, and then there's the part in The Runaway where Katara got offended when Toph suggested that she was mothering the Gaang. Obviously she didn't see herself as a mother figure for Aang, and thus any argument that she'll think it weird to date her "son" flies out of the window.
Still, there is almost 100% certainty that Zuko and Katara will become good friends by the end of the series, so that's worth something.
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Post by deana on Apr 27, 2008 18:21:58 GMT -5
textbender, what I think is meant there is some Zutarians have made moments out stuff that wasn't moments the writers intended to be romantic Zutara. Even I don't buy into all the symbolism stuff. I just see to characters that are meant to be together.
What is pro Zutara is where it was brought up in the interview. What is the biggest element of the show that was not envisioned when it started? Which can be interpreted as a potential Zutara romance will happen, but when they first started writing Avatar, it was the furthest thing from their minds.
Zenjamin: This latest interview is the biggest pro Zutara thing I have seen. The keyword is potential romance. Katara and Zuko aren't friends, but they will be and their friendship may turn to more. What ever happens will be big or it would not have been in that section of the interview.
I see Aang trying to woo Katara because of his crush, as a romance. Still don't mean Kataang will be canon because it is in the DNA of the show. I have seen to many shows that start with big hints with one romance and end with another. Smallville (DNA of the whole freaking show) is built upon Clark's epic love of Lana, but she is not his soul mate. Digimon started with Tai's love for Sora (DNA of Digimon Season 1) but she married Matt.
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pg15
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Post by pg15 on Apr 27, 2008 19:03:09 GMT -5
But were either of those shows planned out from the very beginning?
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Post by deana on Apr 27, 2008 19:07:34 GMT -5
But were either of those shows planned out from the very beginning? Probably not. I believe no writer, at the beginning of a story, will know just how the destination to the end will turn out. They have what they want to happen but things also evolve along the way. I am writing a novel between my studies and it keeps evolving, but my beginning and ending will be the same, with many modifications.
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Post by textbender on Apr 27, 2008 19:13:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the refernce pg15. Now I have to wait for my dad to send back my DVDs in order to listen to the commentary. (I like converting family members to what I like, but it comes with a price...). . What is pro Zutara is where it was brought up in the interview. What is the biggest element of the show that was not envisioned when it started? Which can be interpreted as a potential Zutara romance will happen, but when they first started writing Avatar, it was the furthest thing from their minds. Yes, that's true, they are saying it is a big thing now, but not one that they anticipated. They said they were aware of the tension from the beginning... but they didn't meant Zukko to mean more to Katara than, say... Haru or Jet? Or they just didn't mean anything conclusive to happen between those two, just some suggestive possibilities towards the end? Maybe some jealousy from Aang once Zukko joined the group? But Zukko would have to mean more than Haru and Jet, being one of the most important characters of the series, not a side distraction like the other two. Also, I can't help wondering why they would say people are jumping ahead if they didn't have something to jump to. And the tone of that "whatever"; it sounds as if even if Zutara will happen, they don't like that ship !? I really thought Kataangers were imagining possibilities where there could only be Aang's daydreams, and it looks like I minimized a ship that's supposed to be more important than that. I have seen all those scenes, the dancing, the kiss, but there was no "heat" in them. Even the trailer scene for me looks remarkably chilly. There was only Aang's crush shouting, and Katara sort of going along with a boy's attentions. The only time there was anything close to "romance" for me (although I was in shock, and thought: ok, Aang is acting this way because he's had no sleep... and whaaat?! what did Katara just do? did she respond?) turned out to be a silly daydream of Aang's. And the animation showing him so ridiculously puckering out his lips while daydreaming really puts a damper on any excitement for me for that ship. The creators make too much fun of their own ship, and kill the romance. It's all about how they do it, after all. Aang is fun, but a romantic hero? And this was my whole feeling, Deanna: that the romance is just a long developed daydream from which Aang will one day awake. Now it seems like there will be more development than that. There will be something more from Katara than rejection. And, unless they change the style of their interactions... it doesn't work for me. EDIT: I would think they would know where they'd want the romance to go, though, since it is the DNA of the show!! I really want to know one day exactly where they wanted the romance to go, to what extent it changed, and why.
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Post by deana on Apr 27, 2008 19:28:35 GMT -5
I didn't really jump the gun because I started watching Avatar late. I saw COD before a lot of the season one episodes. So Zutara was cemented in my mind before watching all of Season one. For some reason The Blue Spirit is the episode that cemented it as my OTP.
To answer the question. Their interview is anything but clear. It is obvious that it can be interpreted in a lot of ways so I say they are Jedi Masters at avoidance in this particular area.
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Zenjamin
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Post by Zenjamin on Apr 27, 2008 19:28:40 GMT -5
Zenjamin: This latest interview is the biggest pro Zutara thing I have seen. well, you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that... but I am surprised you think so, even though I see your reasoning. but when they spoke of Kataang, they simply called it a romance. there is a difference here. when they say "potential romance", I think they are simply saying that Katara and Zuko are male and female, and that they know that the fans are likely to pair them up. remember, that whole section they were talking about zutara in context with the fans. "we were aware of it, but... we never thought it would be so big" seems to me that in this context, "potential romance"= fannon, while "romance"=... well, romance. one that they actually put in the show. (cannon) To be perfectly honest, I do not understand your reasoning at all here. Look at the interview in context. The "Section" it is in was not about "big" elements of the show. but rather about what just suprised them. and they laughed when they talked about it, showing that they did not expect such a reaction from the fans, but they are not at all against it. seems to me that they wanted to playfully express that they found the enormity of the fandom reaction rather baffling. I hope that didnt sound harsh, it wasnt meant to be. But thats the reaction I got form the DOBS commentary as well. I have not seen smallville, but I understand that it took multiple seasons for Lana to stop trying to resolve clarks secrete (the avatar state for kataang) and move on... also she had to die (at least once) ... ya, 5 episodes in not enough time for the needed drama/development to make the transfer from aang to Zuko, and from Mia to Katara.... even if the show was all about all of the drama of shipping. I would agree with you taht Aang could lose katara through the AS and even die, but Bryke fed the fandom by revealing the either kataang or katara would be endgame. there is enough time for aang to lose katara, but not enough time (or reasons) for katara to make that transfer. PS: textbender, I think your reaction to aang just being a kid that you cant feel "heat" towards is funny, because Bryan identifies with Aang and even said he looks looks like him. I can imagine his hurt look now. ;D seriously though, it doesnt matter if you felt the "heat" during the kataang dance or not, there will always be people who differ in preference. what matters is how katara felt during that scene.
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